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rherschbach -

I'm not sure if memorizing dialogues is a good idea, but one thing that definitely helps is going
over the vocabulary and patterns until you have them down and can replicate them on your own (even
better if you can modify and expand on them with your own sentences). This is one way to get the
most out of Chinesepod. They recently made it easier by adding a "dialogue only" podcast. This
also makes it safer to study in the car -- less fiddling around with the Ipod...

Chinese has a lot of constructions that seem strange or counterintuitive to an English speaker. I
just don't think there's any way to really learn them without a whole lot of repetition and study,
until they become second nature. Otherwise you can end up with a large vocabulary and still be
unable to form a sentence. The Chinesepod transcripts are full of patterns and, by my count, at
least 10 good new vocabulary items per episode. (I'm referring to intermediate here). A person who
mastered them all would be able to communicate pretty well, I think.



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rherschbach -

As for the problems with the elementary-level lessons, I have a radical suggestion: just skip
them! Or use them as a supplementary resource. Start with Pimsleur, as Luobot suggests, or a good
old fashioned elementary course like Kan Qian's. After that, you are ready for intermediate
Chinesepod.

IMO, the real strength of Chinesepod is at the post-beginner level. That's when a student can
really take advantage of the dynamic learning model they provide.










furyou_gaijin -

Discussing individual learning styles is rather out of place in this thread. And yet, what
realistic alternatives are there to memorising (bits of) dialogues - in the sense of listening to
them to the point of being able to reproduce the whole sentences when suitably prompted? Or
memorising (bits of) sentences from a written native source? If there is any other way to achieve
the ability to sound and to write like a native speaker (and not like one who is constantly
translating from one's own language), everyone is welcome to share.

Marketplace for Mandarin Chinese is the least of one's concerns when one has a goal to achieve
fluency in the language: if one wants to make real progress, one simply has no time to comment on
the colour of the banners and the user-friendliness of the section captions. The pragmatic
approach is to take ANY available resource and squeeze the maximum out of it. And then discard it
and move on to another resource that offers more.

And under the above approach, CPod was a no less valuable resource a year ago (in its pristine and
simple form) than it is today (with tons of embellishments). I will continue to use it while I can
still learn new things from it but I will also continue to adjust the ways in which I use it, to
keep up with my needs of the moment: this is by far more efficient than trying to get CPod make
any change if one's primary goal is to learn a language and not to benefit the community by
creating a perfect resource.










leosmith -



Quote:

No progressive study plan?! Those learning the language in self-study should be sufficiently
mature to work it out for themselves, it's more fun that way, too:

Just curious - is this language learning method to your liking?










Luobot -

@ furyou_gaijin -



Quote:

Discussing individual learning styles is rather out of place in this thread.

Why so? In my original post in this thread (#16), I started out by saying:



Quote:

Chinesepod.com - Does it really work?

There isn’t a clear “yes” or “no” answer to your question. It depends on your personal
learning style …

You are more than welcome to disagree so that we can consider all different perspectives, but you
do need to back up such statements with an explanation. Why do you think that it’s “out of
place” to discuss individual learning styles? I’m left hanging to find the “because …”
Is it because you think there is only one right way for everyone to learn?

Regarding memorization, there’s a vast difference between memorizing dialogues wholesale, as you
originally seemed to advocate (i.e., your statement: “learn the dialogues by heart and recycle
them in your conversations”), to your latest statement about “memorising (bits of)
sentences.” I agree that committing vocabulary words and phrases to memory is necessary, but
it’s not enough. The most essential element is to have an understanding so that you’re able to
remix the bits and small lexical chunks in an ad-hoc way, driving your communication on its own
wheels, rather than on a pre-laid railroad track that only goes to certain stations.

Regarding the marketplace, it’s all important in determining what resources are available to us.
The marketplace brought about Cpod, then its competitors, then improvements in Cpod, and so on. As
the force of the marketplace continues to push this process, we continue to benefit.

Regarding criticizing the “colour of the banners and the user-friendliness of the section
captions” – personally, I never have, as I have larger issues with Cpod – but on the other
hand, why get so worked up about people who try to improve a service in ways that matter to them?
If things are just the way you like them, then you should certainly say so, and even point out the
advantages that you see in the current status, rather than criticizing others merely for
expressing themselves.



Quote:

The pragmatic approach is to take ANY available resource and squeeze the maximum out of it. And
then discard it and move on to another resource that offers more…. this is by far more efficient
than trying to get CPod make any change if one's primary goal is to learn a language and not to
benefit the community by creating a perfect resource.

Isn't Cpod all about community? Isn't that why you're here writing?

What other Mandarin resources have you tried that work? That question is also part of the topic of
this thread.










hunxueer -

I enjoy the occasional dose of ChinesePod, but as many others have already stated, as a
supplemental resource. And the levels do seem quite arbitrary; I'm at the bottom of my class in
Intermediate 1 at Sichuan University, yet according to CP's test I'm Upper Intermediate, and
listening to some of the podcasts at that level, that seems about right.

I'd guess this has a lot to do with marketing: If the customers feel like they're making (rapid)
progress, they're going to be more satisfied than if they feel like they're spending all this
money and time and not being able to advance through the levels, which, with Mandarin, is entirely
possible.










furyou_gaijin -

@leosmith

I have come across this site before. His approach is very hardcore indeed. Most people (even on
kanji.koohii, where I started a thread on 'All Things Chinese' under a different name) come to the
study of kanji parallel to learning the language via more traditional methods. So learning kana
after kanji is not really an option. Then come the sentences: the only problem with that is where
does one get the sentences from? How to make sure the sentences are diverse enough to cover
sufficient vocabulary and grammar patterns? He doesn't seem to be giving an answer...










leosmith -



Quote:

Then come the sentences: the only problem with that is where does one get the sentences from? How
to make sure the sentences are diverse enough to cover sufficient vocabulary and grammar patterns?
He doesn't seem to be giving an answer...

Good points. I've had an urge to criticize the method a few times, but I get such intense negative
responses to my criticism, I crawl back under my rock. Maybe it's time to try again....










furyou_gaijin -

@Luobot

Ok, let's discuss individual learning styles. There is no 'right' way, there are many ways. Some
of them are efficient, others are less efficient. But efficiency has to be measured in relation to
each individual's goals. And as goals differ, it is impossible to impose one style for everyone.
The discussion of specifics can merit a separate thread, hence I judged it out of place in the
current one.

Regarding memorisation of dialogues: at the initial stages learners will probably find it
beneficial to memorise the whole dialogue (ni hao ma? wo hen hao! ni jiao shenme minzi? wo jiao
Ken, etc...), at a later stage - only sentences with new patterns and lots of new vocabulary will
require memorisation. I didn't realise that this required clarification but will attempt to be
more specific going forward.

I don't think we disagree on the importance of being able to remix, etc.

Regarding the marketplace: yes, it is important to know what is out there but there is a limit to
the process of discovery. Often, it is better to stick with an old resource until it's exhausted,
instead of keeping switching over to new ones as they appear. Time is a limited resource and there
are enough people on forums and in language-learning blogs who seem to be passing more time
searching for a perfect book or website than studying. Learning languages is in this respect
similar to photography: many people spend much more time discussing and buying equipment than
actually taking pictures...

Regarding criticism and praise: have I not repeatedly stated that CPod is a useful resource?

Regarding other resources, it may help to state my goals first: ability to read and comprehend any
texts in the Chinese language (including, to a degree, wenyanwen). Any ability to speak and listen
is a 'nice-to-have' and will take care of itself when the first objective is completed. I have
exclusively used CPod and real-life conversations with native speakers to achieve my current
intermediate (in CPod terms) level. However, most of my time is now spent on a 'full-time' study
of hanzi and vocabulary, with a goal to learn 6,000 hanzi by year-end. My CPod routine has been
very basic: listen to the whole podcast only once, discard the banter and carry on listening to
the dialogue only. If I have a question on grammar, I will look it up in my grammar book or ask a
friend. I have never considered using any of the CPod premium features.

Once again, many of the points you (and others) make in the discussion above are very valid
points. It just seemed to me that at a certain point the discussion closely approached my
photography analogy...










koreth -



Quote:

And the levels do seem quite arbitrary; I'm at the bottom of my class in Intermediate 1 at Sichuan
University, yet according to CP's test I'm Upper Intermediate, and listening to some of the
podcasts at that level, that seems about right.

"Intermediate" and "advanced" are arbitrary labels by definition, though. Each curriculum defines
them differently, depending on what its particular emphasis and pace is. Even universities don't
agree on what materials are suitable for which levels: for example, Stanford University's
second-year summer intensive program uses a textbook that claims to be aimed at third-year
students (中国剪影 aka "A New Text for Modern China," the one from Peking University).

So the fact that one curriculum's "intermediate" doesn't match another one's is a universal truism
in my opinion, nothing to do with either ChinesePod or Sichuan University.












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